An Interview with Alice Mackler and Joanne Greenbaum
by Mary
Jones
photo by Mary Jones 2013
At
age 82, Alice Mackler is having her first one person show and her work is
definitely getting some attention.
Reviews have appeared—all of then very positive--in the NY Times, Time
Out, and the NY Observer, and that’s just in the last 6 months.
Much
of her work is ceramic, figures of women who are delightfully phallic,
vibrantly hued, and wildly alive.
They’re cartoony, beautiful, and somehow primordially familiar.
Strutting poses and lushly, lumpenly sexy everywhere, these ladies have brought
on comparisons to the Venus of Willendorf, Willem de Kooning, and the sculpture
of Daumier. At once primal and
contemporary, smeared with make up and dressed to the nines, they are
undoubtedly Divine, although it might be in the John Waters sense of the
word.
Mackler’s
work was first seen at James Fuentes “Forget About the Sweetbreads”, curated by
director Adrianne Rubenstein and Alice’s friend and first collector, the artist
Joanne Greenbaum. Now
represented by Kerry Schuss, her one person show provided a wider context for
her work; paintings, drawings, and collages were also on view, spanning decades
and showing the depth and consistency of Alice Mackler’s unique vision.
I met with Alice Mackler and then with Joanne Greenbaum, to
hear their mutual stories of their meeting and appreciation of each other’s
work.
Mary Jones to Joanne Greenbaum: How did you discover Alice’s work?
Joanne Greenbaum: I take classes at Greenwich House Pottery,
just like Alice Mackler does, and for years I would see her amazing sculptures
coming out of the kilns, and displayed on the shelves of finished work.
Finally, I asked about who made them and I started buying them. About a year ago, we happened to be in
the same hand building class and got to know each other. I loved watching her work, seeing the
decisions she made, how she glazed the pieces, and how she shut out everything
in the class and could just concentrate on her work.
Last
January, I was curating a show at James Fuentes with Adrianne Rubenstein. I wanted to do a show that wasn’t just
the usual suspects or just my friends in New York. Instead, I had some artists in mind that I’d recently met in
Berlin. I really liked their work
and they’d never shown in the US before--oddballs, whose work all fit together
somehow. I thought of Alice and
showed her work to Adrianne who immediately got back to me and said, “OMG! She HAS to be in this show!” And Alice turned out be the
most successful person in the show.
MJ: Can you
describe how you relate to her work?
JG: There’s
something about it that’s very inspiring to me in my own work, maybe because I
tend to be reclusive and very focused--I kind of identify with her a little
bit. Maybe I’ll be like her when
I’m 82. I think her work’s really
good, and I when I saw that she was charging almost nothing for these terrific
sculptures, I thought, if I have the power to do it, I would like to help
her. At James Fuentes, all her
pieces sold. Then I introduced her
to Kerry Schuss, and he too saw the quality of her work, and now represents
her. Now she has a show up and she’s getting reviews, and it’s all working out.
MJ: How do you think her age has influenced the reception of
her work?
JG: First of
all, not all old artists are outsider artists! She’s very educated and sophisticated. She’s not working in total
isolation. She’s been quite poor,
and I know it’s been hard for her. I think most of the writing about her work has
been correct: that she has a beautiful line, and that her work refers to
Modernist masters. But her work is
also very contemporary in the way she uses collage, and ceramics are all over
the place right now. A lot of what
she does, I see a lot of younger artists trying to achieve, especially in the
ceramic work, which is so hot right now.
 |
| photo courtesy of Kerry Schuss |
You
can’t work year after year in total anonymity if you don’t have ego and
determination. Life will defeat
you, but the thing that’s inspiring thing about her is that life hasn’t defeated her, and that at age 82 she can realize
some of the dreams that she wanted for herself and she’s thrilled to be getting
some attention.
On June 27th I met Alice at her show at Kerry
Schuss and we talked in the gallery, with Kerry Schuss sitting with us. It was an auspicious day for
octogenarians--Edith Windsor’s photo was splashed across the front page of the
New York Times because she’d just won her DOMA suit in the Supreme Court, and
there was Alice’s first one-person review in Time Out magazine just hitting the
stands.
MJ: You’ve been studying art seriously since the early
50’s. I think of the Art Students
League as a place where there’s a focus on figurative painting. Was this true for you?
Alice Mackler: Yes. It’s
all I did. I particularly remember
Will Barnett as an influential teacher.
I loved school.
MJ: Allow me
jump right in with a personal question.
Were you married? Have a partner?
Did you have a family?
AM: No. I couldn’t deal with it. I had a sister and she did all that for
me. She had a home life for
me. She died not so long ago. She was a smoker. I miss her terribly.
MJ: In your recent press, there’s been a list of estimable
influences. Are there any that
you’d like to add to that list?
AM: No, except
Klee, he was the most important influence for me.
He’s excellent!
MJ: You were
saying that you never edit or revise your work.
AM: I have no
idea what’s going to happen, good, bad, it just comes out. That’s always been true for me. I let
it be whatever it is.
MJ: Where do
the ceramics come into your work? When did you begin?
AM: About 1999. I lost my job. I was an advertising manager. It was a full time job that I had for 16 years. It was just
a job, I didn’t like it, it was office work. But when I lost it, I didn’t know
what to do. I thought that pottery
would be something that I could sell.
MJ: Is that when you went back to school, to SVA?
AM: No, that was earlier, while I was still working. All the
galleries said, “ What art school art school did you graduate from?” So I said,
“Alice, you’re going to have to go back to school and get your college degree.”
So I went to school at night, and worked full time during the day. It took 4 years I think, and I had to
take one day off from my job to go to school, but they let me get my BFA. I loved SVA.
MJ: Greenwich
House is where you still make your ceramics, and where you met Joanne
Greenbaum?
AM: Someone was buying my work there, but they wouldn’t tell
me who it was, and then one day I found out she was in my class, and I said,
“Oh my god, OK.” She was buying everything. Then I settled down, and then one day she said, “I put you
in a show.” I said, “You
did?” She didn’t ask me! She just did it!
MJ: Were you
thrilled when you read the review in the NY Times?
AM: I was
overwhelmed with joy. I mean it was unreal. The only thing I want to clarify is
that I’ve been compared to Grandma Moses, and that I’m an Outsider artist. It’s not true. She’s an outsider artist--I’m not. I’ve
worked too hard for this.
Hard. This was published
somewhere. She’s good, but we’re
different.
MJ: How do you feel about some of the other descriptions of
your work? Do you agree with
Roberta Smith, they are “conveying a human pomposity?” That they’re very joyful?
AM: (Laughing)
They can say anything they want.
Yes, they are joyful, and I’m all in it, and it’s all
me. Everyone tells me that
too.
MJ: Are they
always women? Do you ever make a
man?
AM: (Laughing
and showing Kerry and me a sketchbook) This was a male model, and this is what
happened!
All male models! I can’t
cope with it!
Did I answer that question? OK Kerry?
I can’t tell from a male from a female, look at the shapes, it’s all the
same!
MJ: Are you taking classes now?
AM: It’s not a
school. It’s life-drawing sessions
held in a basement on Spring St.
I’ve been going off and on since 1994. I hadn’t been going for the past three years because I
didn’t have the money. But now I’m back and look what happens! I go whenever I
can. It’s the money. I go as the
money comes in.
MJ: You have
beautiful collages in your show, using magazine pages and pictures of glamorous
women of fashion. Do the colors of
fashion influence you?
 |
| Photo courtesy of Kerry Schuss |
AM: Probably,
but I’m not aware of it. It’s all
intuitive. I like clothes. I love clothes. I’m a real shopper.
MJ: You were in NYC during the 60’s. Was Pop art an influence on you?
 |
| photo courtesy of Kerry Schuss |
AM: Alice did
what Alice wanted to do. This was
not an influence. Is that it?
I’m overwhelmed with this whole thing.
MJ: I was
thinking of Niki De Saint Phalle, and I was imagining casting glass perfume
bottles out of your ceramic shapes.
AM: I LOVE Niki
De Saint Phalle! I just love her work! I think she’s the best in the world.
 |
| photo courtesy of Kerry Schuss |
MJ: Are there other women artists that you feel a kinship
with?
AM: Helen
Frankenthaler. I think of all the
people who died, and there hasn’t been one show in any art museum of any women
artists who have died in the last 10 years. Have there been any shows in any major museums of female artists
after they’ve died? There hasn’t
been one, has there? I don’t think
so. I don’t think there has been. It’s an interesting thought. It’s a good question. Why?
MJ: Do you
think things are better now?
AM: Not really,
maybe in a 100 years, if we get lucky.
MJ: When you
make these joyful figures, it must be a great release.
AM: Yes it is.
It’s always a great feeling. I love life.
I’ve been through hell, but I love life. I didn’t know what to do. I’ve been very unhappy until now, and
now I’m not the same person. Art
has been a real refuge for me. One professor called me over said to me way
back, “You don’t need to be here, you know exactly what you’re doing. You’re
going to be well known”, and I said, “Oh Yeah, I’m still waiting”. I heard this my whole life. It’s all me.
Mary Jones is an artist in NYC, a
Senior Critic at RISD, and an adjunct professor at SVA.
